Source: A Mormon Debates Alex O’Connor on Jubilee Media- Atheist Vs Christians Channel: Thoughtful Faith Published: January 27, 2025 | Archived: June 2, 2026

Video: A Mormon Debates Alex O’Connor on Jubilee Media- Atheist Vs Christians
Channel: Thoughtful Faith
Published: January 27, 2025
Duration: 37:31
Views: 164,649
Category: People & Blogs
Video ID: 5IjjnW_5PLc

Description

On Jubilees Surrounded Series - 25 Christians Vs 1 Atheists. Two Latter-day Saints (Jacob Hansen and Hayden Carroll) had their chance to debate world renowned Atheist Alex O’Connor. So how did they do?

Link to full episode: https://youtu.be/VpK8CoWBnq8?si=FeisewQ_P7kPgyN1

Our Links Website: http://thoughtfulfaith.org Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thoughtful.faith TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thoughtful.faith Podcast: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1478749

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this video are entirely the opinion of the creator and do not necessarily reflect any officially endorsed positions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or channel sponsors.

Keywords Alex O’Connor, Jubilee, Christians vs Atheist, Surrounded, Atheism, Christianity, Debate, Mormon, Mormonism

Tags

jacob hansen jacobhansen thoughtful faith thougtfulfaith mormon exmormon antimormon fairmormon ldsapologetics scripturecentral wardradio ldsconf Alex O'Connor Jubilee Christians vs Atheist Surrounded Atheism Christianity Debate Mormon Mormonism Alex Alex O

Transcript — YouTube panel (human-authored)

0:00 \[Music\] so I recently was on the show Jubilee as part of a panel of about 25 Christians engaging with the world-renowned atheist Alex o’conor in this format each of us would get a few minutes to try and challenge Alex on one of his particular claims now Jubilee is the largest Channel that I have ever been on it has over 9 million subscribers and frequently hosts major national and international figures and Garners hundreds of millions of views so what happened well it was kind of a bloodbath the Protestant Catholic and other credal Christians got pretty well dismantled by This brilliant young atheist philosopher but what about the two Latter-Day Saints in the group myself and Hayden how did we do compared to the others well we each had one shot to try and challenge Alex and we only had a few minutes to do this so I think figured in this video we could slow it down a bit and examine our arguments and how well Alex handled them

1:07 so let’s start with Hayden hi my name is Alex OK Conor I’m an atheist and host of the within reason podcast and today I’m surrounded by 25 Christians who God willing might be able to change my mind my first claim is that suffering makes God’s existence \[Music\] unlikely oh so close hey nice to meet you Hayden how are you Hayden nice to meet me would you say that theism or atheism better account for the idea that suffering exists and a purpose for it depends exactly what you mean uh because of course you might say that the world itself is more expected on theism and since suffering you know needs the existence of the world that is theism but granted the existence of a material world let’s say I think atheism okay would you agree that Consciousness is necessary for suffering uh I would say probably yeah does atheist M account for Consciousness does atheism account for Consciousness this is a good question

2:06 remember Alex is saying that suffering is not what we would expect if there was a good God but Hayden is asking if Consciousness itself is to be expected if there is no God why is he asking this because suffering is a manifestation of Consciousness put simply if you don’t have conscious ious you don’t have suffering so Hayden brilliantly asked if Consciousness is what we would expect on atheism does atheism account for Consciousness perhaps not maybe atheism accounts better for Consciousness than atheism does whoa that’s a big admission so if there is no consciousness there is no suffering is that right that’s probably true yeah so think about that if Consciousness is needed to have suffering then suffering is not what we should expect in a purely material Universe do you see the point Hayden made here if atheism cannot account for Consciousness then it cannot account for suffering would you agree with that I I so I think what we’re doing here is

3:12 we’re sort of slightly Shifting the goalposts did you see Alex’s face I think he realized he was in trouble here um if if you don’t want to Grant the existence of the material world before we start talking about this we can do an argument from Consciousness but then we need to debate whether Consciousness is more is explicable on atheism what I’m going to say is this what I’m going to say is this ious may seem to imply the existence of a conscious creator of the universe exactly that is Hayden’s point if suffering is a manifestation of Consciousness then when you ask why suffering you are also asking why Consciousness and Alex is not willing to say that Consciousness is better explained on atheism so watch how he tries to Pivot away from this and go on the offense we’re here talking about I suppose we’re talking about Christianity the claim was about God but the god that you believe in let’s say uh if we grant that there is a Creator deity who sort of brings about the universe of conscious creatures have you ever heard of the evil God hypothesis that Steven

4:11 law popularized or came up with so the idea is that like imagine that there’s a God who brings about the world and creates the world but does it maliciously because he wants human beings to suffering uh to suffer he brings about a world in order so that human beings will suffer right that seems like a plausible hypothesis and even if you think that Consciousness points towards God the kind of God that that a lot of Christians think is a sort of necessary quality of God which is to be all loving might not have to apply here can I ask a question yes if Christianity were true is it plausible that suffering is necessary for God’s purpose for for if Christianity is true then I think it must be necessary because there be no other exp so we’re not talking about whether or not Christianity is true but if you’re asking me if it’s plausible that Christianity is true and therefore suffering is necessary I would say probably not because I don’t think suffering should be necessary or could be necessary in an atheistic worldview it it I would agree with you it makes no

4:58 sense at all but okay I would ask so so can I ask you why why then if God exists and wants to come to know everybody and wants to love everybody and does so for the sake of human beings why he chose to imbue the world with so much suffering that is at least seemingly completely inexplicable are you a father no I’m a father mhm I want my son to become just like I am better than I am I should say I want him to become the best that he can be is it possible for him to become to reach his potential without suffering in his life perhaps not again Alex concedes that suffering may be necessary but there’s two so suffering is necessary there are a few things I want to say here firstly that kind of moral development doesn’t apply to non-human animals as I’ve already said right that does not account for that does not account for the brutal death of animals in the world also if I don’t want to talk about your son because it’s tragic to think about but somebody else’s son has suffered and died immediately as a result of that suffering they don’t get to develop in the same way I would agree

5:56 that on a micro level it’s very hard to justify and we can ask the question why doesn’t God intervene on all you might be a to justify an amount of suffering right but the fact that there’s so much gratuitous suffering in the world is what I think makes God’s existence unlikely there are some instances where maybe a certain amount of suffering brings about a certain amount of good in a situation that by the way would count as a justification but when a child dies of Leukemia and they’re could there be a purpose to it what if what if the death of the child brings their parents to God then then the parents should be grateful that their child got leukemia because it’s doing the of the law not necessar to your you’re so cool so what do you think I think Hayden did excellent as time ran out Alex made one final swipe saying there’s just too much unnecessary suffering in the world for someone to believe in God but this is a point I actually address later in this episode

6:48 so let’s move on I got my chance to go up against Alex in his final claim my next assertion is that Jesus never claimed to be God hey how’s it going Alex it is great to meet you I’ve been a fan of yours for a long time even though I’m a Believer thank you so much that means all the more you claim that this was a later tradition that developed is that correct yeah I think so okay when would you say that that tradition developed probably fairly early on I mean the writings of Paul decades after Jesus’s death I must say I did find it funny that Alex said the notion of Jesus being fully Divine was a later tradition but then he immediately admits it developed very early during the time of the eyewitnesses okay so do we have a better source for knowing what Jesus actually claimed than the gospels no we don’t take note of this Alex admits that the gospel accounts are the most reliable source that we have available for what Jesus actually said and claimed so what do they say about his claims to be God okay

7:49 so if the gospels are indeed the best source for understanding who Jesus was do those gospels portray him as a Divine person well like I say I think that there’s only one gospel that unambiguously portrays Jesus as himself claiming to be divine and that’s the Gospel of John okay again take note because he contradicts this later he said that the only gospel that portrays Jesus as God is the Gospel of John that there’s only one gospel that unambiguously portrays Jesus as himself claiming to be divine and that’s the Gospel of John which is the latest and most theologically motivated of all of the gospels even then the claims that we’re talking about things like before Abraham was I am the Greek term there is ego Amy one chapter later in John chapter 9 Jesus heals a blind man and the blind man goes back and people say were you not the man who was born blind and what does he say EG Amy I am it’s also just a way of identifying yourself and saying it’s me I would want to know then in the synoptic gospels are they

8:45 claiming that Jesus is just a mere man I think that it’s debatable what the synoptic authors are doing but I’m happy to grant that the synoptic authors were trying to portray Jesus as God as you can see it did not take long for Alex to change his tune before it was John was the only gospel that portrayed Jesus as God and now he is saying that Matthew Mark and Luke also portray him as God and thought that Jesus was God so that means all four gospel writers were intending to portray Jesus as God that correct okay now in the first century Hebrew culture do you worship anyone other than God depends what you mean by worship so the Greek word for worship used in the New Testament is I don’t know how to pronounce it Prine or pranin something like that which typically in the Hebrew is translated the septu agent to that word Prine in the Hebrew is a word which tend which just means something like bow down before so for example the same word is used when Jacob bows down before Esau the same word is used when Joseph’s brothers bow down

9:42 before him when he’s the the governor of Egypt the same word is used for King David for example in multiple books of the Bible but in the synoptic gospels is Jesus portrayed as being woried I think at some points yes so for example at the end of John’s gospel doubting Thomas the beginning in the birth narratives of course I think the birth narratives were forged in later Editions I want to focus entirely on the synoptic gospels because those seem to be the one that you think are the most shaky on this in the synoptic gospels is Jesus is the charge of blasphemy given against Jesus yes absolutely right can you be given the charge of blasphemy merely for claiming to be the Messiah well let’s find out in the book of Acts since Steven has a vision before the Pharisees what Vision does he have he looks up before the Pharisees and he says I can see God and I can see Jesus sat at the right hand of God separating Jesus and

10:27 God what do the Pharisees do they Stone him to death for blasphemy so we know that you didn’t have to claim that Jesus was identical to God in order to be stoned for blasphemy how about judging the entire world is that something that a an a human would do I it have to be a very special kind of human I understand that you think that only God can judge sha see Alex said that maybe Matthew Mark and Luke were portraying Jesus as God but now he is having to face all the evidence and he eventually admits that these authors were trying to portray Jesus as God so did the synop goel do the synoptic gospels portray Jesus as the one who is going to judge the world I think that may be true the synoptic gospels May portray him as as being that what I’m asking for is in Jesus’s own words or indeed in his own actions claiming to be God for example a moment ago you said that he was stoned for blasphemy can you be stoned for blasphemy for doing something other than

11:15 claiming to be God in the book of Acts since Steven is sown for exactly that so do you agree that that at least isn’t an indication that Jesus is claiming to be God I don’t know that they necessarily were stoning him for that exact thing I don’t know the exact context of that with with that in mind the Divine birth of Jesus is another Factor that’s all the synoptic gospels in those gospels Jesus is born of a Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit it’s only two of the synoptic gospels and in Luke’s at least is probably a later Edition it wasn’t in the original vers of Luke regardless is Jesus’s birth portrayed as a normal human birth no no not at all in all of the synoptics so if he’s not a man two of them well well that’s fine if he’s not a man in these gospels and what is he well again I’m happy to say that the synoptic authors were portraying Jesus as God see Alex eventually concedes because the evidence strongly shows that

12:03 there is at the very least in the synoptic authors that they were trying to portray Jesus as a Divine being especially whoever added the the birth narrative to Luke after the fact that’s I’ve got no problem with you just don’t trust those gospels no in the same way that I don’t trust the legendary accounts surrounding the birth of Alexander the Great I don’t think that he was God either is there a better more reliable source for the historical Jesus than the gospels no so let’s recap the gospels according to Alex are the most Rel able source for knowing what the historical Jesus said and did and all four of these gospels portray Jesus saying and doing things that no mortal man would do or say but to be fair that does not mean everything in the gospels must be perfectly reliable and he points that out but within the gospels there are more and less historically reliable points so as I’ve already said there are

12:55 seemingly sources so for example when Jesus says something in Aramaic on the cross when he said say Eli Eli dides okay pause sorry you’ve been voted out by the majority please return to your seat good fun nice to meet you great to meet you so overall I enjoyed the exchange and all the credit in the world to Alex being grilled by multiple people and having to do all of this off the top of your head is super challenging and he did a great job so after a few more people had their turn something happened that I did not expect this CH by H just seems very also very knowledgeable very enthusiastic and philosophically minded as well why don’t me bring you back out of everyone he spoke with Alex chose me as the person he wanted to debate and now I would have to make a claim and defend it from Alex now keep in mind that I was surrounded by 25 people who probably don’t even think that I’m Christian but I also knew that this was likely the only chance in my life that I would ever have to make a

13:58 claim about the restored gospel in front of 10 million people online so I took my shot so my claim which might bother some people in this circle and this is why I thought maybe we could find a little bit of Middle Ground here because I represent a form of Christianity that a lot of people don’t even consider as Christian I’m a Latter-Day Saint also known as a Mormon awesome and um my claim is that the restored gospel also known as Mormonism provides conception of God that is more rationally defensible than any other credal Christian sect now right here they edited out the audible gasps and moans that I heard in the room when I said this okay oh tell me why I must admit I don’t know very much about Mormon theology I know you also don’t like being called Mormons right so I don’t quite know what what ter what term we generally are know saints latterday Saints the church a member of the Church of Jesus Christ are theological claims for example um the problem of evil okay

15:02 so the way that we address it so the problem really so far as I can tell that you have isn’t so much with suffering right because suffering could be something that is justifiable right yeah in principle it’s sort of the amount of suffering the depth of suffering absolutely so the issue really is Injustice it’s as you it’s not Injustice it’s suffering and particularly suffering of non-human animals okay this is a point that I don’t know if Alex fully Ood suffering is not inherently a problem for example if I have to take medicine that causes me to suffer temporarily but then provides a better outcome later that suffering is Justified but if I were to take that same medicine for no reason at all then that suffering I experiened would be unnecessary or unjustified in other words the problem is not the suffering itself but if that suffering that I experience was NE necessary to serve a purpose that made the suffering worth it this is extremely important to keep in mind in this

16:07 exchange and I don’t know that I articulated it very well so with the concept of Injustice the Latter-Day St conception of God is that God actually his purpose is to make us become as he is yes does that include animals as well animals are part of the created order that will be redeemed along with the rest of of the created order okay so what does suffering do for them suffering is part of the inherent nature of the world as a Fallen World okay even for Animals yes even for Animals whose fault is that let me break down a of question yeah let me let me break it down like this sure so if I have a child and I want my child to grow up to become like me my child needs to go out of my house he needs to go into the lone and dreary world and if that is the case that means that there’s going to be some level of separation between me and him he’s in the world of Injustice it’s a world that is unfair is that world

16:59 unjust and unfair because I understand what you’re saying you want your in this analogy you want your child to become like you and what’s what that’s going to involve is encountering suffering developing as a person getting thicker skin the only reason that you want that for your child is because they’re going to live in a world where they’re going to have to encounter that and you want them to be better at dealing with that right if you were given the opportunity to give your child a life that was separate from you where they went about and did their business but there wasn’t that kind of suffering and you chose the one in which there was suffering just for the sake of it I think that would be problematic well it’s not it’s not that I chose to put them in that world see this is a difference in latterday Saint theology that’s what I’m interested in latterday Saint theology there is a pre-existence and human beings knowing the injust nature of reality have the

17:38 choice oh they choose to they choose to enter into the Mortal state to pass through the way to look at it is there’s this realm of Injustice where anything can happen I can go out tomorrow my kid can get cancer all these things can happen and the idea is we say but if you’re willing to pass through the realm of Injustice this is a necessary condition to reach Your Divine potential come why is it necessary there’s another thing about latterday Saint theology that’s different like for instance God cannot create a square circle why does that apply here I mean because because God cannot bring you to your Divine potential because of the nature of the laws of reality okay but like why why not cuz you’re just you’re just sort of restating that he can’t do it I want to know why I know what I’m saying is is that there are laws that even God is bound by which laws are relevant here like which laws are is like the law of noncontradiction for instance why does why is explain to me how the law of

18:25 non-contradiction binds God to not create a world where there’s no suffering because that relationship with God must be freely Chosen and God cannot force me because there is the question why doesn’t God just make us all Happ that’s a separate question because God can make a world in which there’s no suffering in which you’re still in which you’re still free to choose whether or not to follow him I I would say that that is a logical contradiction okay so maybe you can tell me why CU right now what you’re telling me is that it’s it’s illogical on the level of creating a square circle to create a system that a person can voluntarily choose to to to sort of exit the Heavenly realm and go into in order to do whatever they need to do to get to God get to God to become as he is sure to to fulfill their full potential that has to involve not just suffering but but the kind of suffering that we see on planet Earth the the I’m asking why that’s logically necessary a totally unjust

19:12 World okay because it is by passing through this realm that we have the experience of Injustice that allows us to know what Injustice is but why do we need to know what Injustice is this is a great question Alex asked asks why do we need to know what Injustice is and it’s the restored gospel that provides an extremely compelling answer I wish I had this scripture handy at that moment for it must needs be that there is an opposition in all things if not so righteousness could not be brought to pass neither wickedness neither Holiness nor misery neither good nor bad wherefore all things must need be compounded in one wherefore if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead having no life neither death nor corruption nor incorruption happiness nor misery neither sense nor insensibility wherefore it must needs have been created for a thing of not wherefore there would have been no purpose in the ends of its creation wherefore this

20:21 thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes and the power and the mercy and the justice of God and if ye shall say there is no law ye shall also say there is no sin and if you shall say there is no sin ye shall say there is no righteousness and if there be no righteousness there be no happiness and if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery and if these things are not there is no God and if there is no God we are not neither the Earth for there could have been no creation of things neither to act nor to be acted upon wherefore All Things Must Have vanished away we should keep in mind that essentially the entire chapter of second Nephi 2 in the Book of Mormon is an answer to Alex’s question this is but why do we need to know what Injustice is because how else can you come to be like God kind of like the Adam and Eve story there’s the fruit of

21:17 the tree of knowledge and good and evil so what is Justice how do you define justice off the top of my head I would say that Justice is getting what you deserve yeah right okay and so the problem is that like you could imagine a situation in which there was nothing wrong nothing bad nothing evil and therefore no need for this rectifying force of Justice see this is where we disagree the restored gospel tells us that God cannot create any State of Affairs but rather only states of Affairs that are possible within the constraints of Eternal law but I get more into this as we go on it’s a little say we say justice is a good thing but Justice is a good thing in so far hold on Justice is a good thing in so far it overcomes Injustice that’s what it’s there for in the same way that chemotherapy is a good thing because it tries to overcome cancer if I said that I was going to create cancer so that we could have the good of chemotherapy and you said why would you do that and I said because there’s no

22:10 way for us to achieve the good of chemotherapy without creating cancer you look at me like I’d lost my mind no it’s like saying this is the the better analogy it’s like saying to my son son the only way that you can become the way I am is to go out into that world where Anything could happen and to persevere I don’t think think Alex realizes what I’m trying to say here I’m trying to say that it’s not possible for man to become like God without suffering we do not believe that God could create a world that is simply the Garden of Eden forever and at the same time have us become like him it’s sort of like having your child become like you while living at home the whole time while you take care of their every need our unique Doctrine is that the fall was necessary in God’s plan you see because we reject creation from nothing we don’t believe God can simply make whatever he wants we believe God creates and operates within a set of constraints and so because he could not simply make us Gods like him

23:17 he thus had to create a plan and thus in LDS Scripture it shows this plan being made by God wherein man is offered the opportunity to become like him by passing through this unjust world of mortality but at this point Alex shifts the conversation into a topic that frankly is not my forte I still have a qu with this but for the sake of time I want to ask you about animals do animals consent to go into this honestly I should have just said yes to this in LDS thought animals have souls that existed before this life and perhaps some degree of agency so it’s not outside of our theology to say that animals chose to come here as some part of a plan for them involving their own progression the animal kingdom is part of the Fallen World they are part of the Fallen order they feel pain I don’t know this was a bad response animals certainly feel pain but there is a question and this is what I was getting at about how they

24:15 experience that pain in comparison to humans for example if I crush a fly and that fly’s brother sees what happens does that fly feel the same kind of emotional trauma that I would feel if I had just watched my brother get crushed to death so while animals certainly do feel pain there is a real question as to how they experience that pain and how that relates to the suffering that they experience I that’s that’s more of a good question I don’t know necessarily where they what’s your confidence level like if I started strangling a dog in front of you would you stop me yeah I think I think that I have an obligation to prevent the death of living creatures not death I’m not going to kill it I’m going to keep it alive just so it can suffer more stop me from doing that yeah right why uh because I believe that God wants us to protect the created order okay so and to create goodness light and truth so would that be similar to like you know me stepping on a a plant or something you’re just like hey don’t do that man it’s the Crea or do you think it’s because they’re suffering I think it is probably because they’re suffering

25:14 but I don’t understand that suffering in terms of of the way that humans suffer because you said that the reason why it’s not so much of a problem for humans to enter the veil of tears and have to suffer is because they consent to do so before they’re born if animals don’t do that then I don’t think that their suffering is Justified on the same ground well let me turn this around because while I think that you you bring up some objections there my claim is is that we have a better capacity to handle this than the credal Christian model sure okay so and so would you agree with my claim that we have a better model than credal Christianity I don’t I don’t know this is an interesting point in the discussion where I realized that we were not really talking about my claim in particular to refute my claim Alex would have to show that some other form of Christianity accounted for these things better than ours but l so Alex admits

25:59 that he does not know enough about the restored gospel to make a call on my claim because I don’t know enough because we’ve only been speaking for 10 minutes uh there there are probably things that it deals with better and things that it deals with worse for example you know I’ve i’ I’ve spoken a turn on my show about the Gnostic cosmology which I think does a lot to do away with problems like the problem of evil and the weird sort of seeming IM immateriality of Jesus in some passages and stuff but there’s a lot of problems with it too there’s a ton of problems such as like God’s Providence and the nature of why the demier is created all of these ideas are often times I think created because they better account for certain things over others don’t think that’s necessarily the case with Mormonism of course but yeah I’m sure in some cases it does better in some cases it does worse in this case I I don’t think it does anything more to explain the suffering of animals your problem with the suffering of animals is that

26:41 it’s unjust no it’s not but it is surely Alex would not have a problem with me giving my dog a shot that caused the dog suffering if there was no other way to save that dog than to give it that medicine suffering is only a problem when it is not justified by a greater good then why do you then what suffering suffering if suffering ultimately is redeemed let’s say the animals on the other side for all they suffer they get the best possible animal future that you could ever imagine and the animals get there and they go this is great it was all worth it then it would be worth it so it’s the Injustice the question is why aren’t they just given that without the suffering first do you see how Alex is assuming it’s possible for God to give animals this state of bliss without them going through this realm of Injustice in LDS thought all of creation needs to fall in order to rise again as taught in second Nephi 2o without opposition in all things without opposites without contrasts then there

27:50 is no distinction there is no good because there is no evil there is no light because there is no Darkness Creation in a sense is the work of separating and creating distinction the definition of something is created by its contrast against something else that it is not in this framing it’s nonsensical to talk about the potential for Joy without the potential for suffering this is one of the key theological insites of the Book of Mormon I can understand why you need to do that with humans before they get the the nice reward at the end but why the animal why cause them to suffer human beings will suffer as well unjustly it’s just the nature of an unjust World The Suffering of animals I think is unexpected if a good God is overseeing but it’s not a problem if ultimately they are compensated for well I think it still is a problem because you don’t just get to inflict suffering and then compensate people and think that that’s okay have you heard of the Burlington Club is a club no if if if I

28:47 have to inflict suffering on here wait let me let me let me let me give you this example let me give you this example there’s an Infamous Club a private members Club at Oxford University called the Burlington Club there are a bunch of like eits Posh kids who used to go around they’d go to restaurants they were incredibly Rich they would host a dinner and then they would trash the place they’d flip over tables they’d smash things they they’d cover the walls and everything it was absolutely devastating just horrible behavior and then when the owner came up and said what the hell have you done they just paid them off they said hey have a bunch of money and not only that they paid them way more than the repairs are worth so they could get away with it because the because if anything they’ve done those people a favor no it’s still terrible awful Behavior because even if you’ve compensated someone for it if you’ve caused them for suffering which by the way still hasn’t been explained

29:25 why that suffering exist it doesn’t seem like it’s worth I think Alex’s analogy here is weak what if the only way to achieve world peace and I say only way to achieve world peace for the next thousand years was to allow that group of boys to smash up a few restaurants and let’s say all the restaurant owners would be given a a billion dollars to compensate them would that be worth it the reality is that the Christian claim is that any and all suffering of any kind can be and will be redeemed through Christ and the latterday saint claim is that there was no other way for us or all of creation to reach our divine potential without passing through this realm of Injustice or as we might call it the lone and dreary world it’s worth it it doesn’t seem like it’s can be worth it though for instance a dog that’s getting a shot has no idea what’s going on he’s just thinking this herzon is so terrible and the thing is is if it

30:28 ultimately saves its life it’s worth it if there is a compensatory reward for the suffering that’s there everything can be redeemed view is life even worth it because if life is mostly suffering even for the animals then isn’t The Logical conclusion to end this project all together I wish I had the chance to make this point earlier because what Alex has to realize is that if the world is all fall and no atonement as he would pause it why are we doing this if as Alex claims for animals life is irredeemably unjust then why would we want for animal life including human animal life to continue in essence if life is merely birth suffering and death for the vast majority of species then why are we assuming it’s good for life to continue that’s a separate question but if you had the opportunity to to not have that dog need the shot and you gave them the shot anyway you created the need for the shot and then gave them the shot and call them

31:29 cosmology God God God does not the create the conditions that are where the shot is necessary this this is what I should have said from the start in LDS thought God has created the best world possible to achieve his ends and his ends are for us to become as he is which requires us to pass through this realm of true Injustice where anything can happen and animals suffer and our houses Decay and all our works ultimately return to the dust because this is the only way and Alex got it watch him shake his head that would be God God does not the create the conditions that are where the shot is necessary you’re correct and you’re correct on credal Christianity it does and that’s the biggest flaw with it by the way I want to give you that’s hey Alex it’s been great to meet you man yeah see you later it’s a shame that in the last 5 Seconds of this Alex saw where I was going oh and just FYI that little note I

32:34 passed that was just my contact information in case he wanted to stay in touch now I have to say it was a real honor to have had the chance to spar with Alex o’ Conor he is just about the best person I can think of for this sort of Engagement and hopefully I was able to hold my own against him however what I have not shown in this episode is what happened with the other Christians in the group the reality is that it was brutal while some did a decent job many got absolutely cooked by Alex and in the postow interview I decided to let the millions who would watch this episode know that they did not have to embrace the credle tradition with all of its weaknesses that are so vulnerable to Sharp atheists like Alex overall it was a really great experience if I were to give my totally honest opinion I think it was that Alex o ER was able to kind of destroy a lot of credle Christianity because of the weaknesses in the credal

33:33 Christian position and as a Latter Day saying I couldn’t help but feel like I think we have things that can help solve a lot of the problems that Alex has with credal Christianity and I was absolutely shocked when I found out that in his post-debate interview Alex seemed to convey a similar message Jacob himself said that a lot of the people here might not even consider him to be a Christian because he’s a latterday saint and I think the best thing that speaking to somebody like him does is reminding you that not all Christians are the same there’s not some uniform Christian worldview everybody who comes up is going to have a different opinion and having a Latter-Day Saint in there who has a totally different theology to other Christian denominations let’s say I think is a good reminder of that this comment on the video was also pretty funny is this the ultimate ad by Mormonism what the f and the best part was after the show Alex invited me and

34:27 Hayden and a few others to dinner Alex o Conor is being interviewed for a baptismal for the baptism in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints here you go here you go say say one more time do you have faith in and a testimony a witness of God the Eternal Father his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost unfortunately not and sitting right across from Alex we spent 4 hours talking philosophy Theology and the history of the restoration and just when I thought it couldn’t get better Alex appeared shortly after all of this on a large Christian podcast and said the following um here’s an interesting one from Deadpool he said Alex if you have to join one Christian denomination which do you believe has the most consistency according to the history of the church in scripture uh oh this is this is where Alex would have to pick a jersey minism of course oh my gosh Ah that’s amazing we don’t call we don’t consider them Christians give me give me give me another one well that’s that’s that’s the interesting that’s the

35:29 interesting thing is is that that sort of often not I don’t even know if they really like to consider themselves Christians as as such I think there’s a some really I’ve been learning a lot about Mormonism Mormonism is a fascinating a fascinating religion in many ways a lot of people aren’t aware of its history and also of a lot of its doctrines and Theological ideas and its different idea about like what God is and all of this kind of stuff and the persecution the history of persecution of Mormons in the United States is is pretty amazing too you know like there’s so much really interesting stuff the extermination order of Missouri where like people were told to just kill them you know like it’s it’s an unbelievable history uh and of course Joseph Smith dies in a in a shootout in prison like it’s it’s the one of the most dramatic stories of world religion in the world um of course it Remains the

36:18 case that we have because it’s so new we have better eyewitness testimony to Moroni and the plates than we do unfortunately to the resurrection of Jesus it seems but that was also a point that some eyebrows in my original video which I found quite entertaining yeah Alex let me ask you this anyway I am certain Alex is still a firm atheist who Rejects My Religion but I’m hopeful that conversations like these will help people realize that perhaps they should spend more time talking to Latter-day Saints instead of just talking about them hey guys if you enjoyed this video be sure to hit that subscribe button so my future videos show up on your feed also if you or someone that you know has benefited from the content here on thoughtful Faith please consider becoming a channel donor or volunteer by visiting my new website thoughtful faith.org and clicking on the get involved page