They say that Russia is a country with an unpredictable past, where history is politics "overturned" back in time. This is precisely what Irina Shcherbakova has been fighting against all her life – a historian, philologist, publicist, and human rights activist, one of the founders of the Memorial society (and now its co-chairwoman) – and "Novaya-Evropa" interviewed her. Initially, we wanted to talk to her about how Russia would commemorate the 85th anniversary of the start of the Great Patriotic War: a so-called "Museum of Memory" would open in Moscow on that day, which, on the site of the destroyed Museum of the History of the Gulag, would tell about the "genocide of the Soviet people." And what the memory policy of a "healthy person" should be. But while we were arranging the recording time, news also came that an entire network of "Memorial" branches and related organizations had been declared extremists. So we discussed that too. A supporter of the International Historical and Educational, Charitable and Human Rights Society "Memorial" holds a candle near the building of the Supreme Court of Russia during hearings on the case of the International "Memorial" in Moscow, Russia, December 14, 2021. Photo: Yuri Kochetkov / EPA. Irina Shcherbakova. Photo: Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung / Wikimedia.— Let's start not just with the current, but, I would say, the sensational – the latest news about "Memorial" and "OVD-Info," which, together, in early June our "Ministry of Justice" seemed to have "upgraded" to the level of outright terrorist organizations, – correct me if I misunderstood something… — No, not exactly. At the end of March, the international "Memorial" was declared an extremist movement. And this already meant criminalization. And what did they do now? They presented a list of 34 organizations [allegedly associated with "Memorial"], some of which do not have legal entity status, or do not have the word "Memorial" in their name. This is how the [news] reason arose again, because this list already names specific organizations that were previously vaguely referred to as an extremist movement. — What has this changed in your work? — In Germany, of course, we work in safety, but this declaration as extremists and terrorists is still a bad story… It undoubtedly increases the potential threats for everyone who is in Russia and has been in any way connected with "Memorial" in previous years. The law does not have retroactive effect. But in fact, we know from [criminal cases related to] FBK that if someone [in power] really wants to, then it does. And we have been working for several decades, erecting monuments, publishing books... Criminal prosecution of anyone can begin at any moment – this is the meaning of these repressions. As cautiously and without going into detail as possible, I still cannot help but ask: do you still have, let's say, counterparties in Russia? Thousands of people were involved in memorial work for many years, and, of course, there are still people there who believe that everything that happens with historical memory is unacceptable. And they are trying to resist it. — Yes, yes, God grant everyone strong nerves and that they take care of themselves… Is the same mechanism of repression possible here as with LGBT and childfree – when people are arbitrarily tied to some movements, which don't even have legal entity status? — Of course, it just opens up such broad possibilities. And the inclusion of "OVD-Info" in the list is, of course, a very, very big blow, because it was legal advocacy and information gathering "on the ground" – it was extremely important for people. — And to the more "cheerful" news: on June 22, the "Museum of Memory" will open, where instead of the history of the Gulag and the victims of Stalinist repressions, they will talk about the "genocide of the Soviet people." How closely are you following this story? — Of course, I follow this news. As far as I understood, they didn't even bother with a complete revision of the documentation, but just inserted the necessary words. „ That is, literally – replaced the Gulag with the "genocide of the Soviet people." I haven't come across detailed specifics about the new exhibition, but I can imagine what will be there… — A hypothetical question – if you could safely be in Moscow tomorrow, or, conversely, if this museum were to come, so to speak, on tour to Berlin – would you go? Curious to "know the enemy face to face"? Or would the feeling of disgust prevail? — I would certainly go there. Although, in principle, it's like with objects like the Temple of the Armed Forces [in Kubinka, Moscow region]. It is absolutely not necessary to go there personally to get an idea. Because the pictures are very clear, showing what is on the walls there. So I don't think there's any particular point in going in person… Probably, there will be documents [exhibited] from the ChGK, the Extraordinary State Commission for the Investigation of Nazi Crimes during the Great Patriotic War, which was established in 1942 and whose materials formed the basis for the preparation of the Nuremberg trial. Some numbers, some photos of Ostarbeiters deported to Germany, Soviet prisoners of war. I don't know what they will do [in this exhibition] with the Holocaust. After all, if we talk about genocide during World War II in the strict scientific sense of the word, then we are talking about Jews and Roma, as they were the ones subject to extermination. Other crimes had elements of genocide. For example, the destruction of Belarusian villages, the burning of Khatyn. „ But in this context, genocide is a purely propaganda term. During the war and after the war, up to perestroika, it was simply called the "destruction of Soviet civilians," it was written on the places where Jews were killed. And now they have simply, so to speak, extended it to all Soviet citizens. Exhibition "The Language of [Non]Freedom" in the Museum of the Gulag History, February 5, 2021. Photo: Kirill Zykov / Moscow Agency. — Yes, first of all, simply because genocide is ethnic cleansing, an attempt to wipe a specific people off the face of the Earth, and a multinational community – the Soviet people – is not a single people in the ethnographic sense of the word. Have you heard rumors about the possible return of the Dzerzhinsky monument to Lubyanka? — Of course. In short, I think it's a very typical "warming up," as they say. And as an example of historical policy… You see, on the one hand, the figure remains the same, but on the other hand, the context changes. Notice that it was not erected under Stalin, but in 1958, seemingly during the thaw… It was a product of the 20th Congress, however absurd (at the 20th Congress of the CPSU, the cult of personality of Stalin was debunked and the mass repressions carried out by him were condemned. – Ed.). That is, [behind the installation of this monument was] the idea of returning to Leninist norms, restoring socialist legality after Stalin's terror. Let's return to the ideals of the revolution, "cleanse" it! "Iron Felix" was a symbol not of Stalinism, but, on the contrary, a reference to mythical "revolutionary justice" in contrast to Stalin's… I, by the way, clearly remember how in early 1991 I was driving past the monument, and then a taxi driver said to me: "And between you and me, there's trophy gold buried under Dzerzhinsky, brought from Germany." I was just stunned… Very interesting folk myth-making. A combination of myths. A treasure – and the dragon guarding it. And when everyone rushed to tear it down, I was nearby too and even thought, maybe it's related somehow? What if everyone really thinks there's some Grail buried there and that's why they rushed there? I, frankly, already then thought that one shouldn't run there and shouldn't tear down this monument. — And where should we have gone? To the archives? — Yes… We urgently needed to seize the archives, because the KGB officers were sitting there at that time and were afraid. I saw it with my own eyes! After my article in "Moskovskiye Novosti" about Germans arrested by the NKVD and handed over directly to the Gestapo after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, I was allowed into the archive [in the main building of the KGB and FSB] at Lubyanka to examine their cases. This was a few days before the coup [of August 1991]. Then I came there again, almost immediately after the defeat of the putschists. And I remember the feeling of absolute panic. „ Everywhere there were literally papers lying around, which they apparently gave to someone for examination. And those who gave them to me directly said that at first they were afraid that they would all be involved in suppressing the protest against the coup. And then they feared that Lubyanka would be stormed. I then thought about how civil activists and dissidents in the GDR acted correctly when, after the fall of the Berlin Wall, they immediately decisively seized the Stasi archives (the GDR state security service. – Ed.), without waiting for long procedures. Demonstration in defense of the Memorial Society. Photo: Tomasz Molina / Wikimedia. And if they hadn't seized the archives very quickly, it's unclear what access they would have had later. Much could have been burned. And there were people on the other side of Germany who were not at all interested in these archives falling into the hands of public organizations. Of course, our scale was incomparable to how broad the civil movement was in 1991, and it's understandable why this couldn't have happened in this form. Yes, then a law was passed that provided access to classified archives… But in reality, we see that the state has significantly hindered access to them. And today it has effectively closed again. And, by the way, I was never particularly impressed by the idea of "Museon" (this Moscow park houses many monuments of the Soviet era, including monuments to Dzerzhinsky and Stalin. – Ed.). To everyone who knows our history, it was immediately clear that there was no historical stability in this, that it was temporary storage. And if they return Felix now, say, in December, on Chekist Day, nothing incredible will happen. On the contrary, we see monuments to victims of repression being demolished, for example, in Tomsk. — Let's move from the past to a hypothetical future. How would you reflect on the theme of the Great Patriotic War and the Great Terror if you were personally entrusted with the creation of a national memorial complex – or complexes? — The question is, of course, not easy. I think that public commissions should be created on various issues, including [representatives] of the state. And first, a legal basis should be created for all these changes. We must start with the repeal of "historical" laws that were passed [in the Putin era] – on the rehabilitation of Nazism, defining what can be compared with what, and what cannot. Plus, there needs to be a change and expansion of the law on access to archival documents, state and departmental. Nothing will work without this. Next, an assessment of these [historical] periods by parliament is necessary – in the form of resolutions. And not only of the Soviet period, but also of the Putin era. Because these are interconnected things. Next, we need to work through the symbols, decide which ones can no longer be public – from the St. George ribbons to the letter Z. We will need to demolish unfinished and erected monuments to Stalin, monuments to so-called "heroes of the SVO," and so on. This will be a very large mix, which will take more than one year to sort out. „ Research work should begin, as well as work on changing educational approaches, for example, on creating new textbooks, with a mandatory federal principle. But all this will only be possible if and when the regime in Russia changes. Well, as for the completely instrumentalized and mythologized memory of the Great Patriotic War – its history should become part of World War II, part of European and world memory. Where there is a memory of the huge price paid by the peoples of the USSR for the liberation of Europe from fascism, but there is also the history of Stalin's crimes, and the imposition of communist regimes in Eastern Europe. There are a lot of monuments to the Great Patriotic War that reflect not history, but state memory. Almost everything that emerged in the 90s is completely in the spirit of Soviet-post-Soviet monumental propaganda. I would definitely remove the monument to Zhukov from Manezhnaya Square – it glorifies Stalin's victory, but replaces Stalin with Zhukov. It is undoubtedly necessary to cancel the parades on May 9th. In a word, we need to work calmly and honestly and together fill in the "white spots" of history. That's on the one hand. And on the other hand – and this is probably the most important thing – to stop making a false, glossy icon out of memory. Demolition of the monument to Felix Dzerzhinsky, Moscow, August 23, 1991. Photo: Alexander Zemlianichenko / AP / Scanpix / LETA. — And do you imagine a "Putin Center" on the analogy of the "Yeltsin Center"? For example, as a museum of corruption. On Valdai or near Gelendzhik… — No, nothing like that is needed. A center for research and documentation of the Putin dictatorship will be needed. And, of course, centers for research and documentation of crimes committed by the Russian army in Ukraine. Who were the perpetrators, who were the victims. The fates of political prisoners, the places of their detention. It will be necessary to record this memory in various ways: surveys, oral history, collected artifacts, correspondence. This, by the way, is what many of us are already doing, and we in Berlin are also doing it. We collect, as much as we can, various testimonies of those who managed to get out of Russia, Belarus, we record their stories, collect artifacts if they have any – down to clothes and letters. — From the next academic year, there will be a mandatory oral exam in history for ninth graders. How do you feel about this idea? — In normal democratic conditions, I would, in principle, be in favor. But under the current ones, it will be an exam not of history, but of propaganda. What will this lead to? To very great cynicism – I'm not even talking about distortions… This will have very bad moral consequences for society. I went through it myself when in 1966 I took the entrance exam in history at Moscow State University. I already knew that much of it was a direct lie that I would have to reproduce. I'm still ashamed to recall it. And yet, our history textbooks were much better than the current ones – I've seen both versions. After the 20th Congress, at least Stalin's cult was no longer in the textbooks, and his mistakes were spoken of quite directly. But in the current textbook, the main thing is: everything that happens is the fault of the malicious West. The Soviet system is justified there. Gorbachev and perestroika are all machinations of the West. And the fall of the Berlin Wall, the unification of Germany – this is the annexation of the GDR by the FRG. And so on. — Speaking of Germany, by the way. Shortly after moving to Berlin, I discussed with a local intellectual acquaintance the news that in Austria, at the site of the house where Hitler was born, they decided to open a large police station, where trainings on combating right-wing extremism would take place. And there were debates in Austria – what to do with this place at all? I asked what he would do, because I wanted to understand the German logic, optics, and perspective. And I myself, naturally, tried to understand what I would do with Stalin's birthplace – and compare our answers. Sign of the Russian human rights organization "Memorial", Moscow, March 28, 2013. Photo: Maxim Shemetov / REUTERS / Scanpix / LETA. At that time, I also had something in my head, if not a memorial, then a center for the study of totalitarianism for sure. And he surprised me very much with his answer. He said he would make an underground parking lot there, a "Starbucks" or a "McDonald's." A little later, however, I began to understand what he meant: that glorification, even with a minus sign, is still glorification. Perhaps this is the position of a truly mature society? — I agree with him. I've seen Hitler's house in Braunau, and there have indeed been long debates about it in Austria. And I completely agree with the opinion that it should be demolished. Because otherwise, there will still be people for whom it will be a magnet, for them it will be a monument, not in the same sense as for you and me, but a place of pilgrimage. Today we see how "Alternative for Germany" tries to manipulate historical memory when they say that Germany has had enough of repenting and inflating the "cult of guilt," they threaten the Buchenwald memorial complex in Thuringia. So I agree with this person. Because what is there, really, to remember? About the childhood of a person who turned into such a monster? All this can be reflected, comprehended and thought through through artistic images. — And when we talk about Stalin? — In Gori, I would leave the preserved Stalin Museum as an exhibit, and create a completely different one next to it [ about his crimes]. Because isolated inclusions within the main exhibition with stories that Stalin also committed crimes – do not work. — But then, in a few generations, can't they also make a parking lot at Lubyanka and Butovo training ground? — Don't compare. The place where the shot lay – there, a memorial is needed. The memory of the victims must be preserved. And of the crimes committed by the state. Not about the childhood of executioners. Souvenir shop with a statue of Stalin and Georgian flags, Gori, Georgia. Photo: Adam Jones / Wikimedia. — And how do you generally feel about the comparison, which has become commonplace in recent years, of Putin with Hitler? Or perhaps you see more correct parallels? Say, Milošević or Pinochet? After all, this is not the same level, to put it mildly… — I would generally say that comparing the figures of such dictators is not very productive. One can compare structures and mechanisms, the consequences of these dictatorships [for countries], in the end. Or the behavior of people during these dictatorships. The methods and ways by which power is exercised. You know, when perestroika began, there was often a debate that seemed very naive and pointless to me: who was worse, Hitler or Stalin? It's clear why it arose. At that time, the memory of the war was much more alive. And the legitimacy of the Soviet system was proven by the victory over fascism. There were arguments that the regime with more victims is more criminal. It seemed to me that this had no historical meaning. At a new stage of history, we saw that dictatorships resort to similar methods, how they arise, almost verbatim, the same explanations. For example, during the annexation of Crimea, many said: "They are quoting Goebbels directly when justifying the annexation of Crimea and the unleashed war in Donbas!" Of course, they didn't "quote" anything like that, their policy was simply aimed at exactly the same thing. And therefore, the same propaganda formulas automatically arose. — And do you have any formula for what we can unite around in the hypothetical beautiful Russia of the future… For example, a new national holiday? What could this date be? — It's very difficult [to come up with one]. Everything that exists now is already so smeared and perverted… Perhaps, it's better not to choose a date from the past, but from the present (and for us now – the hypothetical future). Only this can become such a national unifying point. Something related to the establishment of a different system. Maybe with the announcement, finally, of real free elections.