Source: LDS Church SUES Mormon Stories for Not Complying with THIS Simple Demand | Ep. 118 Channel: Latter Daily Saints Published: April 20, 2026 | Archived: April 30, 2026

Video: LDS Church SUES Mormon Stories for Not Complying with THIS Simple Demand | Ep. 118
Channel: Latter Daily Saints
Published: April 20, 2026
Duration: 53:59
Views: 27,773
Category: News & Politics
Video ID: bawQ6K_hCcc

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Chapters: 00:00 - Welcome everyone! 00:58 - New Young Women Class Names 09:00 - LDS Church Sues John Dehlin 44:21 - IDF Soldier Vandalizes Depiction of Christ

Transcript — YouTube panel (human-authored)

0:00 Ex Mormon podcast host John Delen is being sued by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after they made what he claims are outrageous demands. But are they really that outrageous? We’re going to be going over all of this and also some recent name changes within the Young Women’s Organization and a very shocking photo that has come out of the war in Lebanon between Lebanon and Israel where an IDF soldier is smashing with a hammer a statue of Jesus Christ.

0:24 We’ll be covering all of these topics and getting into the biblical comparisons, especially with this John Dyn story today on this episode of Latter-day Saints. I’m Kai Schwemer. Welcome back. What power shall stay the heavens from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints? Kai Schwimmer, welcome back. It’s great to have you back in the studio, brother.

0:55 Thanks so much for having me. It’s It feels good. Yeah. Jackson, dude. Jackson, he’s doing something crazy right now, bro. Well, what’s he up to? Can we say? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he is out in Mexico right now with Hayden and they are exploring the Baja Peninsula. Book of Mormon theory that has recently uh come out by David Rosenbal. Yes. And uh they told me that I was invited, but unfortunately I couldn’t go because I have some other conflicts. So I am really having major FOMO right now.

1:26 I’m with you, man. Like to to be there where the Book of Mormon took place is uh is pretty crazy. I don’t know. Allegedly, we’ll see. We’ll see how this theory uh goes prevailing. I’ll say I think it’s super interesting. Yeah, it’s got a lot of legs. So we’ll link in the description the video that kind of introduces this idea we posted on the stick of Joseph a few weeks ago. Uh, and then you can kind of follow along Hayden and Jackson’s journey.

1:47 They’re posting on Instagram and stuff right now. So, I’ll link their Instagram in the description as well. But, uh, yeah, FOMO, but I’m so hyped to be here with Kai because he always makes such good episodes out of LatterDaily Saints. So, let’s freaking do this. Hey, thanks so much, Brando. Seriously, we are we’re so excited to get into this. And just to start, we’re going to do the thing that John Delin said was a terribly crazy demand by saying, “Hey, we are not official representatives of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” Wow, that is that is egregious. Yeah, that was tough.

2:20 Really hard for you to to spit that out. I could hardly choke the sentence out. Like it was it was rough. It was rough. But yeah, that is of course our main featured story today. But before we get into John Delin, the comparison in the scriptures between some of the antichrists of the Book of Mormon and maybe, you know, some of the methods, some of the clickbait versus, you know, the flattering words of their time. Uh we’ll be talking a little bit about, you know, some new news that’s popped up literally just this morning. Um this is from the church newsroom regarding a change in the name of the different um and what did we say there were going to be the age group? The classes.

2:55 The classes classes of young women. Yeah. The classes of young women, of which there are three. Uh and and former formerly they were the beehives. The Mayades. Yes. I always wonder if I say that right. The the the 12 to 12 to 13 was beehives. Yes. 14 to 15 was my mates and 16 to 18. I might be getting the age is wrong. They were laurels. Yes. Laurels. And I’ll say, well, we we’ll dive into what they are now, but I will say any change from beehives, I’m just I’m not here for and I’m not here for the bee eraser. You know, what’s what’s going on? What’s up with the bee eraser?

3:37 I mean, for a while there, they didn’t have a name at all. They kind of got rid of those names for So, I mean, let’s learn what the new ones are. Yes. So, here we’ve got a graphic from the church that they’ve just put out introducing the three new groups. Um, and we we’ll start with the first one. From ages 11 to 13, these young women are going to be referred to as builders of faith. Pretty big. Okay.

4:00 Yep. And then from 14 to 15, they will be messengers of hope. All right. And then 16 to 18, they will be gatherers of light. Okay. So, Kai, what do you what do you think about this? Um, I kind of just want to know what what the purpose of this is. I think it’s I think it’s cool to kind of almost brand yourself in a way to kind of give a maybe a principle to follow by when you’re when you’re um in some sort of group of people.

4:34 Um but that’s that’s just my initial opinion when I see this. What do you think? Yeah. I mean, look, when we think about these names, I’ll be honest, I’ve got no clue what a Maya is. Like I Yeah. Yeah. No idea. As far as making a descriptive label of, you know, what we want these young women to be, um, what we want them to aspire to, I think these these names here, gatherer of light, you know, what is it? Uh, not cultivator of hope. What is it? A messenger of hope, I think, is the only one.

5:04 Yeah. I I think this is actually, you know, it’s it’s more oriented towards what the church actually wants these young women to become and is, you know, far more, I would say, on message for what the church is trying to do, which is direct us to be positive, you know, uplifting um church members, members of our community, and and do these things that these titles are saying. And I think in that way, it’s maybe a benefit to to have these names over Beehive, uh May, and Laurel. Certainly. Yeah, of course I’m, you know, uh, dispositionally a conservative, which means that any change, uh, radical change kind of to some of the nostalgic labels in the church, it’s something that, you know, maybe I recoil at, as with many of us. But is this, you know, a testimony maker or breaker? I don’t really think so. And and I think there’s very little harm in adjusting these names. Although, I’ll say my initial reaction, I’ll be honest, is like, man,

5:57 this is a little bit cringe. Yeah. I mean, we got to be a peculiar people, right? We got to sometimes we got to operate on on on cringe a little bit. Yeah. But this is making me think, why don’t we have instead of uh teachers and priests, we have like builders of large stature. Yes. Or something like that. So freaking real. Yeah. That this is what I have a problem with is we need to boycott we need to boycott the current young men name and and and have some cool names like this. Yeah, true. And maybe the maybe the church opts, you know, to make it more inclusive because look, you know, let’s say somebody shows up to the ward or let’s say it’s even a young man who just hasn’t received the priesthood. He hasn’t been ordained to that particular office in the priesthood. Well, maybe he isn’t a teacher. Maybe he isn’t a deacon. Maybe he is just, you know, uh, a young man of, you know, great stature.

6:50 You know, we’ll throw on a variety of of adjectives or qualifiers from the scriptures. I’m I’m not totally opposed to that. So maybe in an inclusive bout, the church goes that direction. But yeah, I don’t think it’s that bad. It doesn’t roll off the tongue as easily. Like, all right, all the women uh ages 11 to 13, the young women ages 11 to 13, you’ll be going to the builders of faith class. You’ll be builders of faith. I think that’s cool. Um but what this actually causes me to consider is, you know, how are we going to be seeing a change in the curriculum?

7:19 I wonder I wonder if young women are going to be, you know, tackling very different issues or if it’ll oriented specifically to these kind of labels. I’m wondering I wonder if they’ll be getting some sort of like guide or booklet along with it. I I I know that the for strength of youth is is that they have a new version of that and that’s kind of informing the youth and their decisions right now. But remember duty to god bro and I’m pretty sure the young women also had something similar.

7:42 I think so. They still do. I don’t know. But if there’s something that kind of funnels all of these teachings into these names and there’s and it’s very purposeful and intentional, um I can see that being a really big net positive on the young women of the church. And any focus on the youth in the church um to make them better, I think is is an is an excellent direction by the church, such as this Sunday school change that they’re making in September. uh even though that’s you know a lot of people don’t love that so far but uh I think the youth just need absolute uh support right now. So maybe this is one reason to one way to do that.

8:20 Yeah, exactly. I mean I I think if if you’re a young woman and if you’re kind of trying to find your your place in the church, um obviously I don’t I don’t have that same lived experience. Young women and older women who have been young women, feel free to comment. Let us know what you guys think. Would you have felt more at home if you had been a builder of hope versus a or a builder of faith rather versus a beehive or you know are you going to really miss the beehive label? I think that for onlookers maybe it’s a little bit easier to uh to see what the purpose is of these organizations. Um and maybe that’s the goal and maybe it’s not that deep either.

8:54 Yeah. I in fact it’s almost certainly the case that it is not as deep as some people will make it out to be. Yeah. Um, and guys, before we move on to our next segment, I just want to ask you to please subscribe if you like what you see and hear here. Um, it helps a lot with the channel and we love and appreciate you. Absolutely. And now, kind of backing up on some of the the plug that that Brandon just made already when we dive into our next story, it’s very important to mention beforehand that everything that we’ll be discussing, all of the tactics employed, they’ve all been telegraphed already. You know, these these have been tactics used for ages, for millennia, and many of them are outlined here in this book that you can get at plain and preciouspublishing.com called the Antichrist Playbook. So, a lot of what we’ll get into, you know, this is stuff it’s it’s not, you know, we’re not reinventing the wheel. Satan has many of the same old tricks and the deception is is largely the same,

9:46 although the medium is different, but many of those tactics you will find here in this book. If you are so inclined to check it out, you can go to plainpublishing.com if I’m not mistaken. Yes, exactly. Plan impression publishing and can you read that subtitle there really quick? Yes. A guide for young saints to avoid deception and defeat the devil. So this book is uh targeting youth specifically. So get this book for your youth because youth are being targeted by the antichrists as well. It can be it’s a book for anyone but uh yes we’re going to be talking a lot about what is what this book reveals about Book of Mormon antichrist and how we see that in our modern day and how are we doing framed up? Do we have a I think it looks great.

10:26 Awesome. I think I I think this is just a perfect thing to keep as we dive into the story. So, you know, we we have a constant kind of, you know, motif here. Let’s dive in to the featured story which is about John Dyn. Now, John Delin, this this is a story actually that starts in November. Starts in November of last year. And we t and if you’ll remember, we talked a lot about it. We we kind of went off about it because uh you know Jackson ha has has personally met and interacted with with John Dyn and Hayden and uh it’s just it’s just unfortunate the kinds of things that he’s doing here.

11:02 Yeah. Well, and for those who don’t know who John Delin is, John Delin uh runs a podcast called the Mormon Stories Podcast. Now, this is an ex Mormon podcast which as we’ll see has adopted a lot of the like kind of uh the the the logo, the look, the symbols of the church, but is absolutely an an anti-church program. It features plenty of people who have left the church. It talks about the grievances they had with the church, things that compelled them to leave. It is, you know, by all metrics meant to destroy the faith of otherwise believing Latter- Day Saints specifically targeted, you know, for that purpose. Although many of the things they say would extend to any Christian denomination. You know, these are secular arguments being made against the church.

11:48 Yes. John Dyn also has has a very hard time with Christianity in general. In general, and this is something that, you know, I hope our Christian brothers can see. I have said this time and time again. I think it is just the case that anytime a secular or an atheistic argument is levied against the Church of Jesus Christ, it’s actually being levied against all of Christianity, we’re just in the way.

12:11 Yep. And they don’t seem to see that because oh, let’s team up with this guy because he’s going against the Mormons. I just saw a guy named Go with Jordan. If you’ve ever seen him, it’s a Calvinist who who clowns on us all the time. Well, he tries to at least. And and he saidfree John Delin. And I’m like, dude, this guy is trying to tear down your faith as well. Yeah. No, exactly. And and this is the problem is that, you know, unfortunately, um, Christians, many of our credle Christian brothers, the fact that they, uh, refuse to align themselves with Latter-day Saints who, again, I think bear many of the positive fruits of the spirit that they would agree, high church attendance, high rates of charity, large families, um, civic-mindedness, participation in your community, in your church, and otherwise. It’s all volunteer, by the way. like we’re not even getting paid. Despite the fact that we align on so many issues, it does seem

13:01 that there is this tendency to align with the enemies of the church. Even when those enemies of the church are not just enemies of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but enemies of all of Christendom, enemies of Jesus Christ, his mission, and Christianity as a whole. And all of that aside, I I think that’s that’s an important caveat, you know, to make before we dive into this so that we can get some support from our Christian brothers. When somebody talks, you know, about the members of the church wearing magic underwear or believing in this book that was written, the gold Bible, when they’re saying those kind of things, they are basically making the argument against Catholics wearing a brown scapular, for instance. They’re making an argument against um the biblical story, right, of of a a talking donkey or a staff that turns into a serpent or that divides the sea. All of these arguments are equally levied against

13:49 Christians. So, I hope that our Christian brothers can can see that. However, discussing the John Delin story back in November, he was offered or he was served a cease and desist letter by the church. And this concerned the way that his podcast um was a little bit deceptive and certainly used uh terms that were common to the church. The term Mormon of course originates with the Book of Mormon. Um and now we’ll see that John Delin is arguing, well, the church has backed off from the word Mormon for for the term Mormon. So, you know, it’s it’s free reign. You know, now they’re just the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think that’s a very poor argument. Yes, the church’s lawyers made it clear that’s a very poor argument. We’ll dive into all that in a second. But the development now is that because of his refusal to do something as simple as simply clarifying that he is not an official representative of the church,

14:37 that he is not, you know, related to the church or a part of it. Because of that simple fact, his refusal to make that simple disclaimer at the beginning of his videos, he is now being sued by the church for the deceptive use of their logos um of of the official branding of the church, which I think we’ll see is replete. You know, his his program is replete with all of those symbols. Yes. Yeah. Totally. Um so, let’s just, you know, briefly cover uh this this uh trademark complaint article by Desert News about this. Um, and and I know that you kind of gave a 30,000 foot view of it, but just to give people some more information. And by the way, you watched Jasmine Rapley’s video on it, correct?

15:19 Yeah. And and so she does a really good breakdown of it, and if you’re going to if you if you want to get like all of the information on it, she’s a really good person to to She’s great. Yeah, she breaks it down really well. Um, but I just want to show this picture here. So, it’s funny. Whoever whoever designed this intentionally put the Mormon stories just somewhere kind of random in the middle of this and you look at it and you think, “Wow, yeah, it’s true.” Like that that logo right there, that profile picture is is so similar to the other church branding that they have here. Not to mention, it’s called Mormon Stories. Um, and I’ll just tell you right now, Kai, when I was a missionary, um, I came across Mormon Stories on my Facebook page. had never heard of it before and I was interested in it. I clicked on it and it took a few minutes to figure out, oh, this is not a pro-church Yeah.

16:17 Uh, a a pro-church podcast. And I think this is one of the most powerful arguments the church is using against John right now is that his branding of the Mormon stories uh brand as a whole is kind of click baiting. uh members of the church into watching his content instead of being transparent that it’s a an an anti- uh an anti-urch podcast. And so it’s confusing people. And so the church is using that argument to uh say that this is a this is having a parasitic effect on the church that it is uh leeching its way into uh you know pe normal members of the church into their lives and causing them to uh you know if they click on it then they are potentially opening themselves up to some things that are going to if at the very at the very best dampen their spirit, hurt their spirit, and at the very worst destroy their faith.

17:21 Yeah. And and remember, this is what he needs to perpetuate his program. You know, it’s it’s it’s well, what’s the what’s the term in biology when there’s a gene that wouldn’t naturally reproduce itself? There’s a specific term for that. What you have in in the Mormon Stories podcast is um the need to create more ex Mormons. If you want more viewers of the specific podcast that disparages the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you you require you rely on more people leaving the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

17:52 So, you will do whatever is most effective daily saints. Hey, good catch. Thank you. I’m so caught up in the Look at us doing the same thing, John Delin. Yes, obviously. No, and I swear, hey, if if if we were not very clear, if we didn’t make the disclaimers, you know, I think the church would come after us. They’re very even-handed. you know, the the church re has reached out to faithful creators and offered them, you know, this warning like, “Hey, you’re using our copyrighted images and whatnot.” And as long as the creators like, “Oh, okay.” Like, if there’s an understanding there, the church doesn’t go and sue people willy-nilly.

18:23 Yeah. And I saw people using the argument, “Oh, thoughtful faith. Jacob Hansen is somebody that is is doing this exact same thing with his with what like his colors and logo and stuff.” And no, it’s it’s not as much about that as as much as like the overall brand and the messaging. And so this is a this is a obviously deceitful podcast by John Delin that is going contrary to the church. It’s having a net negative on on church members. And so that’s that’s what makes it different from somebody like Jacob Hansen. And I’m sure if the church reached out to Jacob Hansen and said, “Hey, your colors are too similar to us.” Or whatever, he would be like, “Oh, okay. I’ll I’ll I’ll change it. So, why is this such a hard thing for John to accept?

19:06 No, exactly. And the reason is is that he’s worried. He doesn’t want to drop. Like, I mean, really think about this. If somebody asks you, hey, you can keep doing what you’re doing. Please just clarify that you’re not officially or otherwise related to the church. A simple disclaimer like that takes all of what the 5 seconds that it took us to make that disclaimer. We were joking about it a little bit. It’s not a difficult statement to make, but the fact that John Delin does not even want to make that qualifying statement shows that he believes that there is some benefit in not announcing that he is separate from the church. And the benefit is what you described. It is that regular normal believing Latter-day Saints are going to find his content and not be immediately made aware that he is, you know, not related to the church or that he is not a faithful member and that they are going to get sucked into this rabbit hole that is going to create

19:54 doubt. And if that doubt eventually leads to them leaving the church, it is going to expand the audience of John Delin. I think I think he sees this as like this purely logistical marketing strategy, which just shows forth his his character because it’s it’s in bad faith, right? It it shows that, you know, it I don’t want to say that he’s some evil, malicious person because I know people who’ve met John Delin and and and he I think he truly believes he’s trying to um help the church progress to what he thinks it should be, fit in his own box, but he’s doing it in such a way that is, you know, has these really negative consequences. And but I don’t even want to give him that much of an excuse because it’s so obvious that these things are deceitful and and a wolf in sheep’s clothing that uh you just have to use media literacy to think what is the agenda of this guy.

20:50 And the other thing I’ll just say real quick is that he uh I’m I’m like 99% sure most of his audience are not even ex Mormons. Yeah. I’m pretty sure they’re never Mormons. I’m pretty sure they’re people who just like the idea of the cult angle and they uh have a cult porn addiction and they want to hear about these the people who have never been members of the church want to hear about these things. So it’s not even a good strategy for him because I don’t think his ex Mormon audience is as there as he maybe thinks it is.

21:22 Exactly. But I but I think he’s worried. He’s worried because there there’s an air of legitimacy that he gets if he can attach himself to something that is more legitimate. And you know, this is something that is really frustrating. Let’s let’s take a look at some of the thumbnails that he uses. Just just ask yourself as you’re looking through these. Is this a pro Mormon podcast or a anti- Mormon podcast?

21:43 I mean, read these. Joseph Smith’s early opposition and forgotten critics or next. Joseph Smith prepares the church for the second coming. Do you think that’s going to be pro or against the church? I would think it was pro. I would click on it thinking it’s a pro and then you probably click on it and it’s probably some guy who’s has some proof that Joseph Smith is not a prophet and then talks all about how he lost his faith and how everyone should abandon the faith as well. Yeah. And so this is so deceptive and I think this may this may be a good time to read that verse you were talking about.

22:14 Yes. Yeah. Let’s let’s read a verse. You know, Latter- Day Saints are going to already be familiar with it because it’s often quoted to us. Um, unfortunately our evangelical friends that quote it to us don’t really understand the context too well. Um, and they also haven’t read they haven’t read parts of the Doctrine of Covenants that, you know, make it clear what you have to do if this does occur. But we’ll read from Corinthians.

22:35 Let me pull this up here. It’ll be 2 Corinthians if I’m not mistaken. Chapter 11, right? Yep. Chapter 11. And I believe it’s verse 14. 14. Yep. And it says, “And no marvel for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” We know a name that is frequently, you know, used to describe the adversary, Satan, and that is the deceiver. This is one of his chief tactics. It is to take something that is good, to manipulate it, to twist it in a small enough way that causes you to miss the mark. And that is what sinning is.

23:14 It is missing the mark. Satan understands that he is much less effective when he creates something that is so wholly different from goodness because often times it’s observably wrong. Yeah. However, he stands to benefit a lot if he can take something that is observably good and change it either in its intention or either in some of the nuances just enough for it to be corrupted. This is what he does routinely. This is one of his, you know, main strategies. This is part of the antichrist playbook, right?

23:47 Called counterfeits. There’s a whole chapter about counterfeits and what Satan may present as good, but inside it is it is it is bad and it is uh it will tear you down and yeah. So, think about from the very origin of man. If we think about, you know, the these councils and the premortal life in heaven, what did Satan try to say? Look, I’m I’m a good guy. I’m trying to save everybody. you know, the glory will be mine. I’ll save everybody. Um, you know, not a single not a single man, you know, will will lose this salvation. But what is the sacrifice? It is human agency. Yeah.

24:24 It is exactly what we need in order to actually be good. And this is the way it works. It works as a masquerade of a positive goal, but with very evil intentions. And a lot of people will say, you know, they’ll look at um, for instance, the story of the Garden of Eden. And and we’re getting a little esoteric. This is some of my musings on the issue. I have a as a Latter- Day Saint, I’ve often considered the question, you know, well, if Satan plays a role in tempting Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of the know of of knowledge of good and evil, um then why is it that you know this is this is such a terrible thing if we as Latter- Day Saints know that this is a step in the right direction? Yeah.

25:04 I’m going to I’m going to tell you exactly what what I believe is a huge part of it. You can be advised to do something by somebody else for a positive or negative reason. And Satan’s goal, as is made very clear as well in the temples, and and this is where it’s most clear, but it’s also clear in the scriptures, is not to allow man agency to choose good over evil. It is actually so that he can win power over the hearts of man. God’s goal in us having agency is for us to achieve the the true potential that we have as sons and daughters of God. His goal for us is positive. Satan’s goal with our agency is to take that agency away or for us to use it in evil ways. So you have the same mechanism, human agency. But you have two very different reasons for wanting human agency. One of the reasons is noble. This is Christ. This is God the Father. But the other reason is very evil. Does that mean agency is evil?

26:02 Does it mean that we should have never fallen? No. And as Latter-day Saints, we know that this is a step in our eternal progress. But it does mean that the people on either side of that issue are in favor of it for very different reasons. And Satan works that way. Often times, he will even, you know, appear to support a positive cause, but for a very evil motive. And this is why motives are so important to get to.

26:23 Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. No. No. I love that. Um, Kai, are there any other examples in the Book of Mormon of people who have done this very thing who Satan has used as an instrument to perform these these heinous and deceitful lies? Man, I’m I’m so glad you asked, Brandon, because there are certainly several cases, but one of the ones that we were looking over before the show is in the last chapter of Jacob in the Book of Mormon. Jacob chapter 7. And this, if you recall, is a dialogue and debate almost between Jacob, who is elderly at the time as this, you know, old prophet, total legend, um, and Sheram. Sheram, who is one of the several antichrists present in the Book of Mormon, right next to Corahor later on, who has a discourse with Alma, all of which are talked about in the Antichrist playbook.

27:16 Exactly. Boom. You know, we’re just throwing this plug in enough. Um but let’s let’s read you know the verse number four and it says in Jacob’s 7 and he was learned that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people wherefore he could use much flattery and much power of speech according to the power of the devil. Now in this case you know if we’re drawing up a comparison between the language of the people and you know social media today what does it mean? It means that somebody like perhaps maybe a John Delin is absolutely you know knowledgeable learned in the symbols of the church in the language of the members of the church and will employ the symbols the language the rays of light in the logo the christristice in his YouTube banner he will employ all of these symbols to attempt to appeal to Latter-day Saints who see them as a normal part of their faith and thus deceive them into thinking that He runs a podcast that is run by a

28:16 member who is just maybe talking about some parts of the church’s history that maybe aren’t so pleasant, but eventually with the goal of drawing them down into a pit of despair and faithlessness. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Keep going with this. Is there more from Sherim that we can learn or or or from anyone else? Oh, absolutely. We can look at the way that he presents himself. You know, more of this masquerading. What does he say? You know, like we were just discussing, the adversary very rarely says, “I’m an evil person and I hate Jesus and I hate God.” He very rarely comes out and says it just like that. In fact, in the case of Sherim and in the case of Corahor, we see actually that they attempt to masquerade their true motives, the motivations of even the devil who has warped their hearts, warped their minds.

29:00 They masquerade it by saying, “Well, I’m doing this for the good of the church.” So, what is it that he says in his dialogue with Jacob? He says, “And it came to pass, this is in verse 6, that he came unto me, and on this wise did he speak unto me, saying, Brother Jacob, I have sought much opportunity that I might speak unto you, for I have heard and also know that thou goest about much, preaching that which he called the gospel or the doctrine of Christ.”

29:21 Seven. And ye have led away much of this people, that they pervert the right way of God, and keep not the law of Moses, which is the right way, and convert the law of Moses into the worship of a being, which ye say shall come many hundreds, many hundred years hence. Now behold, I Sheram declare unto you that this is blasphemy. For no man knoweth of such things, for he cannot tell of things to come, and after this manner did Sheram contend against me. What is Sheram doing? Sherm is attempting to put himself in the moral position in the debate. He’s attempting to appear as if he’s defending what he says is the right way of God. We know that Jacob is the prophet of God in this case, but Sherim will still employ this rhetorical tactic to make an appeal to the people who are listening, to make an appeal to the members of the church. And I think his appeal is not dissimilar to that of John Delin and other anti- Mormon and ex-

30:13 Mormon podcasts who attempt to say that they are simply like you mentioned trying to take the church in the right direction that the body of the church that the the leadership the brethren have you know perverted the right way of God but in so doing they are obfiscating the fact that they are doing the handiwork of Satan. Yes. Yes. That that I don’t know if there’s a clearer example. You can look at an antichrist so named in the Book of Mormon and you can still see that he is attempting to claim that he is working in God’s favor trying to stop the perversion of the right way of God. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

30:46 Yeah. Yeah. And just looking back on these things again like the three degrees of glory. Okay. Actually this okay that’s not a good example. That is one where it’s not as uh clear that it’s trying to lure members in. But um just just looking at these and then looking like at someone else’s channel uh Saints Unscripted, they just they they look so similar. And this is actually a prochurch podcast. And so just showing that example again to just you know um display that John Delin is pulling this tactic and it is so uh it’s so disturbing how nonchalant he is about doing something like this. It’s very calculated and I I am totally in support of the church doing this. You know, a lot of people think that the church right now is bullying John Delin into submission. And no, they have actually told them that we love free speech. You can continue to rag on the church as much as you want, but stop using such similar branding to uh to to to lure these these

31:55 unsuspecting members into u believing that you are affiliated with us. Yeah. Which you’re not. The church is anything but heavy-handed when it comes to its approach of people who actively bismerch the brethren. People who actively bismerch the name of the church and the name of Christ. We are everything anything but heavy-handed in that regard. There was a cease and desist letter sent out months ago. What did John Dyn do? He posted it on his social media, took it down probably after some legal advice. And then later on, you know, in this uh what is it called? Like in in the mediation of of what’s happening right now, this this current lawsuit, he made it very clear that he was not going to comply with the simple request to put a disclaimer out during his videos. And what did the church say? The church literally said, “We don’t want you to change any part of your content. You can say exactly what you’re saying. You can slander us. You can tell these stories. You can continue

32:49 destroying the faith of normal people without giving them anything to attach themselves to.“ Very depressing, by the way. Like, “Hey, here’s this thing that has provided so much love and value and meaning to your life. It has allowed you to experience the love of Christ. I’m going to take that from you and I’m not going to give you a thing. I’m going to leave you in a vacuum of meaning and I am going to think that I am the righteous individual in that equation. I think that’s a very evil way of thinking. But nonetheless, you know, I’m not trying to be too heavy-handed in this. The church didn’t request that he changed any of the content of his media simply that he made a disclaimer and he was incapable or unwilling to do that. And so what has the church done now?

33:28 escalated it to a lawsuit because he is using copyrighted and trademarked images, symbols, colors, um, and names that the church has. The Book of Mormon stories is a trademark of the church. Mormon stories is a single word removed and is supposedly not in copyright violation. We saw the graphic before that showed all of the different logos. If you showed that to somebody who is not a member of the church, which one do you think they would pick as far as, you know, one of these is not like the others? I don’t think it would be Mormon stories.

33:59 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And he just keeps doubling down like um the defendants assured the church they would remove the church’s copyrighted images from their website and social media pages and would not use copyrighted images in the future. He did change like the color of his profile picture and stuff. I’m not sure what other things he did, but uh just a few lers just a few days later, John Delin used an image owned and registered by the church to advertise a Mormon stories podcast episode. He uses copyrighted images of the prophet and apostles and and we didn’t see it in those examples I showed you, but if you go on his channel, you’ll see pictures of President Nelson, of President Oaks, uh, and the Christa statue.

34:37 The Christa statue. Yes, exactly. And so I I kind of just really want to touch briefly touch on this this idea of using the word Mormon, which to my knowledge, has the church asked him to change the name of his podcast completely? I don’t believe so. I don’t think so. So So where is this? I’m I’m confused where this this idea of uh the church is telling him to get rid of the word Mormon is coming from. Um but people are saying that it it may it may be the case. But even if it is, okay, it’s like where do you think the word Mormon comes from? Comes from the Book of Mormon.

35:12 Exactly. No, it’s it’s a it’s it is even though we have not we’ve we have abandoned that term in our in our vernacular, it’s still uh it’s still a legacy a legacy term that we use and it is tied to some of our own copyrighted uh things that we have like Book of Mormon stories and things like that. Um, I I was doing some research on this and I was kind of looking into what where could this apply in like an analogy of something of of a case study where this has happened before or where this could happen. And um the so in the ‘9s Apple computers were called Macintoshes, but today they’re just called Macs. Okay? So they kind of got rid of the Macintosh.

35:55 Um they don’t want you to call their new computers Macintosh, just like we don’t want to be called Mormons. However, if a rival company, just imagine this, if a rival company started a line of laptops called the new Macintosh or something like that, don’t you think Apple would maybe sue them into absolute oblivion? Totally. And so, it’s just a legacy brand. And even if we’re phrasing it out of our daily speech, it’s still it’s still a part of the church and that’s how most of the world associates with us. So now, John Delin, when and this is reflected perhaps in your audience, when well-meaning people who are investigating the church look up Mormon on YouTube because that’s the word they know us by and then SEO favors your content because you’ve grown so big. Now they’re getting all of these lies about the church. And I think this is the biggest problem I’ve ha I have with this is that people who are seekers

36:49 of truth are coming across this and to being turned off of the idea of the church because you are intentionally employing this antichrist tactic to bring them in and then to destroy any any hope that they may have had to learn about the truth of the church. And I wish all people were, you know, uh I wish we were all smart enough to look into everything about everything and non-biased sources and biased sources and things like that, but we’re just not.

37:27 Many of us are not like that. So well-meaning people who come to try and seek the church and and investigate it will see this right away and then it will turn them away. And I’m so frustrated by that fact alone. Yeah. Well, and it’s like it’s like we were reading, right? You know, him being learned in and having a perfect knowledge of the language of the people. You know, this is our modern-day equivalent of knowing how to use clickbait, knowing how to manipulate the algorithm so that his results um you know, jump to the top of of any search of the word Mormon. And there there’s two last things that that I’d like to point out on this issue. First, it is just simply incorrect that the church is lawsuit happy that they’re, you know, trigger happy about, you know, suing people, especially those who antagonize the church. I don’t know if anybody has heard of a little, you know, an unknown Broadway musical called The Book of Mormon. The church did not attempt to pursue legal action. The church actually used advertising to take the Broadway show that was occurring and, you know,

38:20 funnel people in the right direction to actually read the Book of Mormon. The the issue is the Broadway show is clearly a parody. It’s clearly using it, of course, as an inspiration, but does not pretend to be officially sponsored by the church. None of this would be occurring if John Delin wasn’t doing what he was doing in a deceitful way. That is our operative word here. And I think, like I said, the Broadway show is a perfect example that the church is not just looking to persecute people. John Delin is not persecuted. I’m so sorry, John Delin. Like, you are not the persecuted minority. you have just routinely refused to do the minimum that the church is requiring of you to be a little bit more clear about what you’re actually doing and how it isn’t actually aligned or sponsored by the church. The other thing I would say is I think this day and age, the Mormon Stories podcast is particularly effective because we as a church have grown very comfortable with simply talking about negative

39:15 aspects of the church. And I think we almost do this um in a way to feel, you know, that we can discuss some of the parts of the church’s history that maybe prior were not discussed and that we feel more honest. I have no problem with that. Saints, the book series has come out highlighting parts of the church’s history that were never discussed. The church is far more open now than it has ever been about every part of its history. But I think that we as members often times fall into a habit of simply airing our grievances with the church in a way that eventually becomes unproductive. In a way that eventually does start producing Mormon stories type material where we just start complaining and it is this pessimistic attitude. It is this perpetual interest in what things we are unhappiest about that actually will eventually erode faith.

40:02 Yeah. And when you have those that pessimistic attitude and you’re airing those grievances, you probably are drawn to an echo chamber of people who are the same way and and will tell you things that will maybe validate um in a in a in the wrong way. They will validate uh those grievances that you have and tell you things about them that will cause you to continually gradually maybe uh lose your faith. like you were just saying, “Ode is a good word for it.

40:32 Erosion.“ And that’s exactly what the devil does. He erodess your faith through subtlety. And and so if you have this attitude about it, you’re just going you’re just going to fail because you’re you’re falling into this trap that he has he has ins snared for you. And it’s it’s it’s ridiculous. And and and just really really fast while you’re finding that scripture, um back to what we were saying about using the term Mormon. It doesn’t necessarily say here that the church asked him to change the name Mormon, but it does say that that is part of the problem that they had.

41:06 So, the the church maintains or uh the lawsuit alleges that Delin and Mormon stories have used the term Mormon and a blue logo with fonts and design elements. The church maintains trademarks and copyrights using the word Mormon like we were talking about um so that people can clearly identify what is and is not official church communication. So for example um the church did change the name of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir to the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square, but they still maintain the trademark for the term Mormon Tabernacle Choir to protect the uh choir’s past intellectual property.

41:43 So it doesn’t outright say that they asked him to change the name but I’m guessing that is maybe also one of the demands that they that they have given which he hasn’t come out and said I don’t think but uh just wanted to clarify that there from our earlier yeah and thank you for doing that the the thing that I think that that I was that I think the thing that I thought about you know as we’re as we’re discussing this and to wrap up there’s a verse in 2 Nephi 26 this is verse 22 which describes the the antichrist playbook some of his tactics And it says, “And there are and there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil. For he is the founder of all these things, yay, the founder of murder and works of darkness. Yay, and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord until he bindeth them forever with his strong cords forever.”

42:32 So there you see it does not start with the chains of hell, these strong cords wrapped around you instantly. It is a flaxin cord that he leads you by tying it around your neck until he can bind you with those strong cords forever. That is the way that the erosion of faith works. It’s not in this bang, but it is in a whimper. It is in this slow and steady decline when we have this pessimistic attitude. And again, it’s all an issue of motivation.

43:04 A a member could have a problem with a YSA word, a problem with a bishop. They may not like the way that, you know, the changes to the scheduling are being conducted. Some more conservative members of the church may be disappointed with some of the restructuring and um maybe some of the changes in in the role of women in the church. They may see it as too progressive. We may have these issues.

43:26 We may have these complaints. And it is not to say that an individual can never have a problem with the church. But it is to say that when we allow our discussion of the church to be routinely pessimistic without affirming the things upon which our testimony is founded, which is a testimony of Jesus Christ, of his mission, his life, his death, his resurrection, his atonement. If we are not referring back in an uplifting way to the things that bind us to Christ, we will eventually have those strong cords wrapped around us and we will eventually fall into the trap that John Delin is, you know, playing a part of, which is allowing this this perception of our grievances and our focus on them to eventually dissuade us from believing in Christ at all. And that is what we should be wary of as Latter-day Saints, not to fall in to that trap of a pessimistic attitude towards our faith by focusing on our issues and grievances. Amen.

44:18 Anyway, that was a lot. Unfortunately, we don’t have a very nice thing to end off on, but we do want to cover this very shocking image that came out of the war in Lebanon. Of course, Israel and Lebanon um have been engaged in a conflict um for weeks now. There’s recently been, you know, talks of a ceasefire in order to work out some kind of deal, of course, with the Iran situation, Lebanon and Hezbollah as a proxy of Iran. But this photo came out, if you want to scroll down just a little bit from an Israeli soldier, an IDF soldier, uh who was part of the operations in southern Lebanon. This is south of the Latani River in Lebanon, which is where Israel is trying to establish this buffer zone to eliminate um you know the the Hezbollah forces in in the area. And what you see here is this IDF soldier taking what looks to be a hammer or an axe of some sort, probably something to pry open doors,

45:11 and is taking it to the face of um a depiction of Jesus Christ crucified. I hate that. Yeah, this is a terrible image, an unsettling image, um, and repulsive to to any Christian who sees this. Um, anybody who believes that Christ died on the cross, atoned for the sins of all mankind sees this and sees it is horrible. Um, luckily, if you scroll up, we’ll see a statement made by the IDF, and it’s a long statement. Um, but we’ll read through this because we do want to, you know, give them credit for at least addressing it. A lot of us, you know, myself included, we did not mention this issue when it first arose. You know, this came out, I think yesterday. Um, and I was hesitant to address it at all.

46:00 Many people didn’t because we didn’t know if it was real. In the age of misinformation, in the age of AI, it is very dangerous to go immediately to to address something. But this was confirmed now by the IDF to be a real photo. It says, “Following the completion of an initial examination regarding a photograph published earlier today of an IDF soldier harming a Christian symbol, it was determined that the photograph depicts an IDF soldier operating in southern Lebanon. The IDF views the incident with great severity and emphasizes that the soldier’s conduct is wholly inconsistent with the values expected of its troops. The incident is being investigated by the Northern Command and is currently being addressed through a certain through the chain of command. Appropriate measures will be taken against those involved in accordance with the findings.

46:41 Furthermore, the IDF is working to assist the community in restoring the statue to its place. The IDF is operating to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure established by Hezbollah in southern Lebanon and has no intention of harming civilian infrastructure, including religious buildings or religious symbols. So, I don’t know, Brandon, what what do you what’s kind of your reaction there?

47:00 I don’t know if you’d seen that. I don’t think you had seen this before, but I I did see the picture. I did not see the post by the IDF. And my initial reaction is just uh man, first of all, that is a disturbing disturbing image. I hate that. If you think if you think the image is disturbing, just wait till you find out what what they did to the real G. Oh. Oh gosh. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. A little tongue and cheek, but Well, no. Yeah. No, I know what you’re saying. I just um I always just think PR and apologies are cringe. And that’s partly my fault because I know that uh they are necessary. Um and I don’t always like to say that they are put out there as just a way to save face, but I oftenimes they are.

47:49 Um I don’t know. I really just don’t know too much about this to make a judgment on the IDF and that’s kind of why I’m hoping you’ll enlighten me a little bit. Yeah. I mean, if what they’re saying is true, which is that they’re going to help in the rebuilding of it, that they are going to work uh to assist the community in restoring the statue to its place, this is good. That is the minimum requirement.

48:11 The problem is there, this is not the first time. There was an attack on a I believe it was an Orthodox church as well last year. This is awful image, right, where you’ve got kind of the the top of the church with the cross and literally like this hole blown out of the side of the church. Um, there are incidents like this and and I think we we don’t realize that there are a lot of Christians in Lebanon. There are a lot of Christians who are affected by the fighting. Don’t get me wrong, like I’m upset that there are, you know, you know, Jewish people like just civilians, that there are Palestinian civilians, Iranian civilians, Muslims, Jews, Christians alike who are being affected negatively by this conflict.

48:50 All of them are children of God. All of them are suffering because of, you know, a lot of wararmongerers who occupy, you know, seats of power in these in these states. Um, so I’m upset that any of this is happening, but we of course, you know, are Christians and we have a particular affinity to Christians across the world. And there is no there is no uh true geostrategic or you know military strategy involved in destroying the statue. I think as Christians we have to be very cognizant of the fact um that the belief about Christ um among the majority of the IDF soldiers is not the same as the one that we have and the efforts that we make and certainly discussing this issue it should be to evangelize like that is the goal the gathering of Israel and there’s a great quote by Bruce Rakoni the the spiritual gathering of Israel is not the political gathering of Israel of people of Jewish descent to the historical, you know, land of Palestine,

49:52 I believe, is the is the way that he quotes this. He says, “It may be a precursor there too, but a spiritual gathering or or what is it? A political gathering is not a spiritual gathering and the kingdom of God is not of this world.” We have to remember that, you know, there is an important conversation to be had with everybody, but also, you know, with the Jews, both the ancient ones and the modern ones to accept their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And this is our obligation as Christians. And there are consequences in war. There are certainly very negative aspects to it. But I think it is super super important for Christians to be able to say, “Hey, um, and for the Christian community to come out and and condemn whenever an attack like this occurs on the group there in the Middle East, which is very much in the minority.”

50:40 Yeah. We Christians, I think, are not talked about enough in the discussions of the Middle East, either in the partitioning of the land or in the conflicts. There are so many Christians who find themselves as often neglected casualties of these conflicts. And I think this is something that we need to be able to talk about more. And I think it is a minimum requirement that Israel and the IDF work to once again rebuild and correct this this wrong that that was done. Um, and and I think I think we we should just be very clear about that.

51:09 we shouldn’t have any kind of false notion about the differences in in the religion and you know that doesn’t mean we become hateful that doesn’t mean we we become spiteful um towards towards Jewish people but we have to recognize that there are religious discrepancies and that the goal should be to get everybody to realize the sacrifice that Christ did for them and that is the gathering of Israel that is helping everybody come unto him by making covenants by being baptized that is how you actually are are grafted in right that is the gathering of Israel and it occurs all over the world.

51:41 That’s a powerful uh message that I I honestly didn’t know that’s uh the direction that you were going to take this, but I think that is what you know that is the message that we all as members of the church need to hear and as Christians as well. So yeah, I I think time and time again we’ve talked on this program and on others, war sucks. We are not just these bloodthirsty people. The Book of Mormon condemns this kind of calling for blood, this, you know, swearing by the throne of God the way that, you know, the Nephites did in Mormon’s time. It is a very evil thing to be so bloodthirsty.

52:16 And in war, often times we see the worst parts of people come out, things that would be unimaginable. Um, and and I think this act is one of them. Obviously, there’s probably more things like this occurring, but we have to just be very cognizant of the horrors of war and advocate against it to the best of our ability to petition our leaders to not, you know, get involved in conflicts that will that will submit and subject normal civilians, normal everyday people, whatever their religion may be, to murder, to torture, to violence. I think we should advocate for a reduction of all of those horrors. And uh in so doing, I think we should also advocate, in my opinion, um for more Christian representation in that part of the world. But Amen.

52:58 Yeah. Amen. Thank you guys so much for joining us on this episode of of Latter-day Saints. Thank you, Brandon. Sorry to close in such a a somber way. Um but truly, you know, this is the the conflict that um is raging in the world right now that affects, I would say, more of the world than any other conflict because of the way that it is impacting religious communities represented all over. because of the way that it is impacting global trade routes and markets, the way it’s dividing so many people online more than we’ve ever seen.

53:27 Great point. Great point. Yeah, just the divisions over this issue. Um, this is a conflict that is very important to talk about. Forgive us for uh for for addressing it once again. But importantly, it is always the necessary thing closing the show to remind you all that if you are not looking at the world through a gospel lens, you are only getting half the story. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. We’ll see you on the next episode.